Bad Gas @ <span class="highlight">Dubbo</span>, double consumption...

Submitted: Sunday, Sep 05, 2010 at 21:57
ThreadID: 81159 Views:3689 Replies:3 FollowUps:13
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hi all,

just done a run from bris to melb done the back (newell)...

IMHO, the first servo at dubbo has a contaiminated gas tank.... ,to my shock, horror and potential to get really stuck, my gas consumption doubled between there and the next stop...

WHen i mentioned it too the operator they just laffed and claimed a head wind...

i think it is really lousy how some country business's ripp into travellers but suck up to the trucks....

it's lousy to ripp of for a few dollars
i just hope it comes around sooner and more for them!

On the plus side, gas in melb is 43cents a litre and seems to have less butane in it....
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Reply By: mikehzz - Sunday, Sep 05, 2010 at 22:54

Sunday, Sep 05, 2010 at 22:54
I reckon it's pretty common to cop a 'light' batch of gas every now and then. There's not much the servo can do about it either as you can't really look at it to check. It's the nature of the beast. Mike
AnswerID: 429483

Reply By: Dust-Devil - Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 01:24

Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 01:24
Can either of you two dudes please explain to me what 'contaminated or light' LPG gas is.

AS LPG by its very name states that it is Liquefied Petroleum Gas, are you suggesting that the producers are mixing another liquefied Gas with it, or changing its molecular structure in some way.

I have run a 1981 Datsun Bluebird on nothing but LPG since 1986 and never had in all that time any issues with the LPG supply. Removed the petrol pump in 1988.

During that time I did numerous trips in the subject vehicle up and down the Newel Hwy to Gold Coast and environs. Melb - Adel and return countless times and never ever had one of these so called 'contaminated/light' fills of LPG.

I must say though that I heard of many stories over the years of LPG converters on vehicles having major issues that caused all sorts of problems.

I would respectfully suggest that unless the producer is doing something 'magical' at their end - that it would be nigh on impossible for the 'downstream' supply line to contaminated or turn the heavy LPG into light LPG due to the extreme volatility of LPG and the high tech equipment required to handle it.

Its not like Petrol or Diesel where the storage's can be opened and either added to or subtracted from by anyone with a penchant to do so.

ie Last years contamination of some Servo's Petrol storage's in Melbourne with liquid silicon.

Any info will be helpful so I can keep an eye out for it.

DD
AnswerID: 429493

Follow Up By: Rockape - Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 06:33

Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 06:33
DD,

A couple of years back we were getting our gas bottles filled at Mckinlay, the bottles had to be thrown away due to the amount of oil in the gas, causing jets to block up.

The oil must have come from the producer of the gas.

Have a good one
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Follow Up By: Dust-Devil - Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 11:49

Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 11:49
Just bare with me on this one as I cannot see how when compressing a gas to liquefy it, it then gets 'oil' in it.

What sort of oil are we talking about here.

Is there a Chemical Engineering genius on or watching the forum who may me able shed some 'light' on this subject.

DD
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Follow Up By: robertbruce - Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 12:29

Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 12:29
heya DD & RA,

Rocky, you may be refferring to the smelly oil placed in all gas cylinders that provides the bad smell when/if it starts leaking...

DD.... my vehicle is a 4x4 coaster with a 350 chev engine on it.... i normally get around 22L/100k's on gas on the highway .... after the fill at dubbo consumption went to 46L for 100k's.... during the rest of the trip, with subsequent fills...consumption returned back to normal

maybe i would not have noticed so much if my vehicle, like yours, was 3 tonne lighter...
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Follow Up By: robertbruce - Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 12:32

Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 12:32
also - butane is added to propane to "dumb" down the gas to give a similar octane to petrol...

there are only a few servos that sell straight propane for motor vehicle usage
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 12:53

Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 12:53
It was oil and lots of at that, I have never had anything to do with the process although I would think it either came out of the ground with the gas and was not filtered out or it came from a compressor.

Our power station runs on gas and they have problems with the quality at times.
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Follow Up By: TTD - Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 12:54

Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 12:54
There are two types of gas used for auto gas
Propane C3.H8 (molecule's of Carbon and 8 molecule's of Hydrogen)
Butane C4.H10 usually mixed 50/50 or in the colder climates less Butane.
Anybody that has used disposable gas containers on a portable stove would know that Butane does not vaporise well in the cold hence the lower content down south.
The calorific value of Propane is 21.5mj to the litre and Butane is 22.00mj per litre so the the difference is very small.
The oil is usually some heavy ends from the refining process and ends up in the bottom of a tanker over a period of years,but for the volume transported is very small compared to years gone by.
The odour in LPG (liquefied petroleum gas)is called Mercapton and one drop will scent 1000ltrs.
The oil enters the system when non LPG resistant hoses are accidentally used in the transfer of the gas. Being petrol based it turns some of the rubber to oil.
That residue usually ends up in your gas regulator and gums it up. Very few people get their vehicle regulators checked for the life of the vehicle and the only indication of trouble is poor idling or loss of economy.
Hope this sheds some light on the subject.
40 years in the business.
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 15:44

Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 15:44
TTD,
thanks for clearing that up, by any chance do you know what causes the lower grade gas at work. The gas engines they use are 35/16 cats at .9 of a megawatt and some larger new ones putting out 2.8 megawatts, around 28 sets in all with 4 being diesels

The operators talk about the gas as not being supplied within spec and it causes them dramas.
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Follow Up By: TTD - Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 18:00

Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 18:00
Rockape,
We used to run big cats on methane from the tips and it would run lean at times and we had to spike it with Butane via a device called a callireter.
I would be pretty sure your machines would be running on natural gas and its calorific value would up and down. We found the reciprocating engines like the cats did not run well on the lean mix but the turbines would run on anything.
Natural gas often has a lot of condensate in it (water) if not put through scrubbers and you know what that does to diesels.
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 18:52

Monday, Sep 06, 2010 at 18:52
TTD,

know where you are coming from, the gas engines are .9 of a megawatt and the same diesel engines are 1.4 megawatt, they love to run the diesels to even the station out but because of fuel costs it is rare.

Have a good one
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Follow Up By: robertbruce - Tuesday, Sep 07, 2010 at 00:29

Tuesday, Sep 07, 2010 at 00:29
very informative TTD...

im probably lucky i had a pilot sharing the driving who observed, after one fill, the incredible increase in gas consumption with dramatic reductions in subsequent fills..
wind was in our favour and it wasnt a push...

I guess they might have been putting something else in that tanks with a much lower "calorific value"...water's about the only thing cheaper that comes to mind..
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FollowupID: 700357

Reply By: Gazal Champion - Tuesday, Sep 07, 2010 at 16:59

Tuesday, Sep 07, 2010 at 16:59
Hi All,

Another problem with dirty LPG is that if there is too much oil in it can damage your diaphragm rubber as happened to me when I picked up a bad batch of gas in Gloucester NSW. I know this as there was a fair amount of oil in the rubber lines from the converter to the motor after they had blown of at the motor.

It caused the diaphragm to rupture and over pressurise the piping to the motor which blew off first one end, I then secured it with a hose clamp, then blew of the other end. The next thing it did was rupture the diaphragm good and properly and blew vapourised LPG out around converter bolts after the diaphragm had a major excursion. This meant that the vehicle could have had a major fire if it had not been detected. Thank god for mercapton. I have worked with LPG most of my life but it had me discolouring my undies for a minute.

Luckily it is gas over diesel and I could use the vehicle with the gas turned off till I could get it fixed.

So dirty gas does exist and it could be fatal if not picked up.
I also have had bad gas from time to time where the consumption figures were not as they should have been. Can’t see how the garage staff can doctor that though, more a refinery issue I would imagine.
Regards, Bruce.
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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Follow Up By: robertbruce - Tuesday, Sep 07, 2010 at 18:34

Tuesday, Sep 07, 2010 at 18:34
heya G, thanks for the post....

assuming one can prove where they got the gas from, is there any recourse for picking up a bad tank for bad gas??
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Follow Up By: Gazal Champion - Wednesday, Sep 08, 2010 at 09:14

Wednesday, Sep 08, 2010 at 09:14
Hi RobertBruce,
Interestingly Bruce and Robert are my first names.

As far as the bad gas recourse goes I would not have a clue. Perhaps a contact with the dept of fair trade in your area would be the first point of call in following up any such inquiry. I was lucky in that the gas was not working properly anyway due to bad fitment and ignorant tuning. I took it to the guys who designed (they did not fit the system so were not responsible) the system and they rectified everything and replaced the converter free of charge. A very big thank you to staff and proprietors at Modern Motors in Dungog. They provided a service rarely seen these days.

I might add here that the gas system was operating for about 18 months before the problem developed albeit not working properly. I firmly believe the dirty gas caused the problem in the converter. I say that because you can compress a gas but not a liquid, that is why hydraulics work, and this lack of compression caused the diaphragm to blow out.

Regards, Bruce Robert ...........
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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Follow Up By: robertbruce - Wednesday, Sep 08, 2010 at 09:42

Wednesday, Sep 08, 2010 at 09:42
no worries BR,

ill do some homework about this matter...
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